8/22/25 William Van Wagenen on the CIA’s Covert War to Remake the Middle East

·1 hr 17 min·5 clips

William Van Wagenen exposes how the U.S. and Israel backed al-Qaeda groups to topple the Syrian government.

This episode features Scott Horton interviewing William Van Wagenen about his book "Creative Chaos," which investigates the CIA's covert war in Syria. Van Wagenen is a research fellow at the Libertarian Institute and an investigative journalist who spent time in Iraq and Palestine. The conversation centers on challenging the mainstream narrative of the Syrian conflict's origins. Van Wagenen argues the Arab Spring protests in Syria were not purely grassroots but were organized by U.S.-funded activists trained to use social media. He claims a coalition including the U.S., Israel, Britain, France, Turkey, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia supported extremist groups like Jabhat al-Nusra and ISIS to topple Bashar al-Assad. The discussion references the Yinon Plan, an old Israeli strategy to divide Middle Eastern states, and a post-9/11 plan cited by Wesley Clark to target seven countries. Figures like neoconservative Richard Perle are named as early architects of regime change in Syria. A surprising claim is that the U.S. released Islamic State prisoners from Camp Bucca in 2009-2010 and sent them to Syria to infiltrate protests and attack security forces. Van Wagenen asserts the U.S. and U.K. have a long precedent of supporting al-Qaeda affiliates, citing examples in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Kosovo. He details a theory that al-Qaeda in Iraq was originally a Kurdish creation, controlled by figures like Massoud Barzani and used to foment sectarian war. The interview mentions specific Kurdish politician Qasr al-Ghorani allegedly running al-Qaeda groups in Mosul. Van Wagenen states that Abu Mohammed al-Jolani, a former ISIS commander, is now the U.S.-recognized president of Syria. He describes the 2014 Yazidi genocide as facilitated by the Kurdish Peshmerga despite being carried out by ISIS. The conversation revisits the lead-up to the Iraq War, noting how the Bush administration used Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's presence in Kurdistan as a pretext, despite refusing requests to kill him. Colin Powell's UN speech and the torture of Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi are referenced in this context. The tone is conversational and investigative, with Horton playing the role of an informed but questioning host. The style is educational, diving deep into historical connections and challenging official narratives. This episode would appeal to listeners interested in alternative perspectives on U.S. foreign policy, covert operations, and the modern history of Iraq and Syria. Those who prefer to accept mainstream media accounts of the Arab Spring and the War on Terror might find its claims too contentious.

As heard by us

A hard look at covert policy and the wreckage it left behind.

Scott Horton and William Van Wagenen lay out a long, grim trail through U.S. covert policy in the Middle East, from the Iraq buildup and the Zarqawi pretext to the wider push around Syria and ISIS.

Read the full review in PlayNext →

Why you'd press play

You want the Zarqawi, Iraq, and Syria war arc, without the glossy war-story treatment.

Read the full recommendation in PlayNext →

Listen to the show on

Apple Podcasts Spotify

Play clips from this episode More from Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews